Charlie Rangle on Meet the Press

[JamesAquila]

Did anyone see Rep. Rangle on Meet the Press today? He was wonderful in discussing how Bush stole the 2000 election.

[GoreSupporterNJ]

JamesAquila said:

Did anyone see Rep. Rangle on Meet the Press today? He was wonderful in discussing how Bush stole the 2000 election.

WHOOPEE. All they do is TALK.
Jan

[ErinB]

I read the transcript. It was good to hear a democrat say this outloud. Should have been said a lot sooner. No matter what Rangle says though I will not like him because of his wanting to reinstate the draft. I hope he loses his election even if it has to be to a Republican. I feel that strongly against it...I don't care what else he says, I can't get past it.

[JamesAquila]

ErinB said:

I read the transcript. It was good to hear a democrat say this outloud. Should have been said a lot sooner. No matter what Rangle says though I will not like him because of his wanting to reinstate the draft. I hope he loses his election even if it has to be to a Republican. I feel that strongly against it...I don't care what else he says, I can't get past it.

Rangle wants to reinstate the draft because the armed forces of the country are overwhelmingly made up of individuals from the lower income levels. They are disproportionately black and hispanic as well.
Are you saying that you think the children of the rich and well to do should get a free ride while the children of the poor and minorities be the only ones who's lives should be put in danger to protect us?

[GoreSupporterNJ]

JamesAquila said:

Rangle wants to reinstate the draft because the armed forces of the country are overwhelmingly made up of individuals from the lower income levels. They are disproportionately black and hispanic as well.
Are you saying that you think the children of the rich and well to do should get a free ride while the children of the poor and minorities be the only ones who's lives should be put in danger to protect us?

Do you HONESTLY believe it won't still be the same poor and minorities who get sent first, and that the rich won't BUY THEIR WAY OFF IT like they do everything else in this country? God, you are in denial about the REAL power structure in this country, aren't you? And knowing Erin as I do, I know that is not what she meant. I think your attitude here towards others is really downright unfair in your innuendoes. Especially now that those same people who are poor and in minorities who joined the armed forces in the first place in many instances because life in this country really doesn't afford many of them the opportunities to advance, are now dying in Iraq for NOTHING in a war Kerry, Edwards, and a whole host of Democrats voted for. You should then be outraged at them and all those who now have put OUR children in danger for years to come, and who WILL STILL be the first to be called should there be a draft.
Jan

[JamesAquila]

GoreSupporterNJ said:

Do you HONESTLY believe it won't still be the same poor and minorities who get sent first, and that the rich won't BUY THEIR WAY OFF IT like they do everything else in this country? God, you are in denial about the REAL power structure in this country, aren't you? And knowing Erin as I do, I know that is not what she meant. I think your attitude here towards others is really downright unfair in your innuendoes. Especially now that those same people who are poor and in minorities who joined the armed forces in the first place in many instances because life in this country really doesn't afford many of them the opportunities to advance, are now dying in Iraq for NOTHING in a war Kerry, Edwards, and a whole host of Democrats voted for. You should then be outraged at them and all those who now have put OUR children in danger for years to come, and who WILL STILL be the first to be called should there be a draft.
Jan

The point is to go beyond the simple issue of Rangle wanting to reinstate the draft to the real reasons he has for bringing it up. Stop looking at everything as a such a 'either your with us or against us proposition'. Rangle really doesn't want the draft. He wants to highlight how poor and minorities are bearing the brunt of defending this country. My question to Erin was to see if she understood what Rangle's true goal was.

[GoreSupporterNJ]

JamesAquila said:

The point is to go beyond the simple issue of Rangle wanting to reinstate the draft to the real reasons he has for bringing it up. Stop looking at everything as a such a 'either your with us or against us proposition'. Rangle really doesn't want the draft. He wants to highlight how poor and minorities are bearing the brunt of defending this country. My question to Erin was to see if she understood what Rangle's true goal was.

>>
Then perhaps you should have phrased the question, "Do you understand Rangle's true goals?" to prevent a misninterpretation of your intention. Anyhow, those of us who lived through Vietnam when there was a draft, didn't see an onslaught of RICH and the sons of Congressmen serving in the field either. That was my point. If you are RICH in America you can buy anything or buy your way off anything. Thererfore, suggesting a draft at this point, is to me just another political tool certain politicians will use for their own advantage. BTW, did Rangle vote for the Iraq war? I would like to know that.
Jan

[ErinB]

I see his goal, James and he does have a point. However, I am not in favor of forcing people into the military just because of what some rich people are not doing. He made this an issue after it was long dead and now it just might get somewhere. The Republicans will use this for their own purposes.
No one forces poor people into the military. There are other options to go to college like Pell Grants and Student Loans. Perhaps there should be other incentives to join, something rich people would like..maybe an automatic admission to a club or something.
Americans do not have to be forced to kill to prove they love this country. There are other ways to "fight" for Democracy. When they reinstate the draft and want to come for my little girl that's when I go ballistic.

[JamesAquila]

GoreSupporterNJ said:

Then perhaps you should have phrased the question, "Do you understand Rangle's true goals?" to prevent a misninterpretation of your intention. Anyhow, those of us who lived through Vietnam when there was a draft, didn't see an onslaught of RICH and the sons of Congressmen serving in the field either. That was my point. If you are RICH in America you can buy anything or buy your way off anything. Thererfore, suggesting a draft at this point, is to me just another political tool certain politicians will use for their own advantage. BTW, did Rangle vote for the Iraq war? I would like to know that.
Jan

You're right that Rangle is using it as a political tool. He's trying to put Republicans, who mostly come from affluent districts and claim to be more patriotic about defending America, on the defensive. Every issue is always not as black & white as they seem on the surface.

[MProffitt]

I don't know if you are aware of it, but the Washington's Department of Defense has twice now put on their web site a call for Draft Board Review people. The first time they put it up, people were outraged and it quickly disappeared and they claimed it was routine to keep these people available, but it went up again for a short period of time. People printed it and kept copies. Currently, the numbers of people going into the guard has dropped, and people are not reinstating - when they get back from Iraq they are dropping out in large numbers.

[JamesAquila]

MProffitt said:

I don't know if you are aware of it, but the Washington's Department of Defense has twice now put on their web site a call for Draft Board Review people. The first time they put it up, people were outraged and it quickly disappeared and they claimed it was routine to keep these people available, but it went up again for a short period of time. People printed it and kept copies. Currently, the numbers of people going into the guard has dropped, and people are not reinstating - when they get back from Iraq they are dropping out in large numbers.

The reason they are dropping out in large numbers is because they are missing an arm or a leg.

[earthmother]

I believe we all understand that Rangle's point about the draft is that the armed forces are disproportionately made up of lower class and minority kids. As with Vietnam, they didn't have rich, connected Daddys like George W. to get them into the National Guard, which wasn't called on to fight in Vietnam, so it was a safe way out for many rich kids. Now, as then, the wealthier kids have many ways of staying out of the draft--lawyers who can fight their CO's for them, parents who can afford to support them in Canada or overseas until the smoke clears, bogus medical deferments (callling Howard Dean?), college deferments, non-combat duty, etc. How many sons of Senators and Congresspeople do you think are serving in Iraq? If Bush had two idiot sons instead of two drunken party girls, do you think they'd be serving in Iraq, draft or not? Hardly.

So, while a draft would make some difference, it wouldn't come close to solving the problem. I have a son who will turn 17 in May. The draft terrifies me. My husband didn't go to Vietnam because his number wasn't called in the draft lottery, but he believed it was an immoral and illegal war, same as Iraq. He was prepared to fight against his deployment if it came to that. And just as my husband wouldn't have fought in Vietnam because it was an immoral war, I don't want my son to fight in Bush's dirty Iraq war. I can't imagine anything more tragic than losing a child to that. I applaud the troops who are over there, same as I applauded those who were in Vietnam (despite actively demonstrating against the war), but the last thing I want to see is a draft for this war. Most military experts oppose it, too, because they want people who are committed to armed service, not kids who don't want to be there. Also remember that many people enlist because it gives them a way of getting a college education, etc. Most don't enlist because they want to go to war. Most of the troops in Iraq now never knew they would be deployed. They enlisted during peace time, having no idea we'd have a boffo president who would be able to shove an illegal/immoral war down our throats.

I have always admired Rangle in the past, and while I understand why he wants a draft now, it is not the solution, and I say that on principle, not just because my son will soon be of draft age.

[JamesAquila]

ErinB said:

No one forces poor people into the military. There are other options to go to college like Pell Grants and Student Loans. Perhaps there should be other incentives to join, something rich people would like..maybe an automatic admission to a club or something.

Some poor people have no other choice. Especially after the cuts Bush has made to programs that benefit the poor.

[ErinB]

I disagree, James. They may cut Pell Grants but student loans are readily available.
For some the military is their thing and if I thought we were really in danger I would think differently but
personally, I would rather sleep on the streets than be forced to kill for Bush.

[JamesAquila]

ErinB said:

I disagree, James. They may cut Pell Grants but student loans are readily available.
For some the military is their thing and if I thought we were really in danger I would think differently but
personally, I would rather sleep on the streets than be forced to kill for Bush.

Well I hope that you never have to make that decision. But there are many in the military that didn't join it to kill for Bush but serve their country and try to better themselves to get out of the hopeless gehetto they grew up in. And student loans barely pay a fraction of college costs these days.